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VM - Veronica/Logan - Movie Glance
This was originally a comment on red_satin_doll's journal, but I decided to expand on it a little bit.

Remember all of the research I was doing in Community fandom? Well, when I went to write up what I learned, the thing people were the most passionate about were shippers and shipping. Love 'em, hate 'em, everyone wanted to talk about shipping. So my research ended up focusing on that, and I actually got into the California State University system-wide student research competition (woohoo!) with my paper on shippers.

I needed to go heavily in depth into theory on this paper, and I began reading de Certeau. De Certeau is the guy who originally said readers "poach" when they appropriate something from a media work, and Henry Jenkins used the term "poach" to describe what fans do with fan fiction and fan works. And I've been reading up on deconstruction and bricolage and humanistic literary theory and my brain will likely explode by the end of this semester, but it has really got me thinking about fandom and the way we see shippers and OTPs and favorite characters. So here's what I wrote on red_satin_doll's journal:



I've been reading a bunch of French post-structuralists the past couple weeks, and I think I understand the problem with fandom: we over-identify with our favorites (be it ship, character, show, whatevs), so when someone insults that ship/character/show, we take it as a personal blow. de Certeau (the guy I've been reading the most) has this thing about "strategies" and "tactics" - strategies are the ways "the system" or "the man" or hegemony makes us conform to the dominant narrative, and tactics are developed by individuals to navigate those strategies. We are given a media narrative and told the strategic meaning by the dominant culture. You can "buy in" to the message given, or you can deconstruct it and take what meaning you want from it.

Fandom is a tactic against the strategies of mass media. Fans say "Thanks, Star Trek, for your masculinist narrative, but I'm going to ship Kirk/Spock and create my own narrative." Thus, slash shipping is a tactic meant to navigate the strategy of the masculinist narrative. Another tactic is in picking and choosing what we identify with. In Harry Potter, it can be what house you're in or what you ship. I am a troubled Ravenclaw shipping Tomione like it's nobody's business, you can be a Gryffindor shipping Cho Chang and Minerva McGonagall. Likewise with Buffy fandom. I am a late-season loving, Buffy-centric Spuffy shipper. I identify with the B-Team of Spike, Dawn, Anya and Tara more than Giles, Xander and Willow. I use these identifiers as my tactic to make meaning of mass media - they become who I am and how I see myself.

So when someone insults Buffy, I want to get into their face about it, because insulting Buffy is like insulting me. The conversation (mentioned in red_satin_doll's journal but not really directly relevant) was about how shippers see the entire series through their shipper-shaped lenses. My answer? OF COURSE THEY DO! The thing they identify with most in the show is that particular relationship, so of course it's going to color the way they see the show. What bothers me is when people dismiss shippers as all being "problematic" or "troublesome" or "the reason why fandom is so terrible."

Here's my line of thinking: I've been known to get up in people's grill about particular ships and characters. Disliking these ships and characters (I'll leave what these ships and who these characters are up to the reader) is also part of how I differentiate myself from other mass consumers - it's part of my identity as much as being a late-season loving, Buffy-centric Spuffy shipper is. So when I say something passionate against said ship or character, I'm saying it because something fundamental inside me objects to them.

So this brings us to ship wars. You have people who over-identify with ship A, which goes counter to those who over-identify with ship B. "A" shippers object to ship B because we're all rapist lovers (was that too specific? Okay, we're all bad people who like problematic characters). When "A" shippers and "B" shippers meet in discourse, of course there's going to be conflict. I think it's extremely naive to believe that two groups of people who firmly believe and identify with two contrasting things won't have some conflict.

That doesn't mean we dismiss shippers completely, and some of the people dismissing shippers would be the first ones out of the gate with a chainsaw if their favorite character was disparaged or dismissed.

WE ALL OVER IDENTIFY WITH OUR FAVORITES. It's how we differentiate ourselves from every single other mass media consumer. When I write my list of fandoms and ships on my tumblr page, I'm making a declaration about who I am. So it really annoys me when people place all the blame about fandom conflict on shippers. If your favorite was threatened, wouldn't you rally to support them?

So yeah. I support the shippers because they have every right to identify with what they end up identifying with. That doesn't give them (or me) the right to be a jackass about it, but shippers shouldn't be looked at as some lesser being because they're distinguishing identifiers is a romantic relationship.

I think I may have lost myself in this, but do you get my point? I'm not even sure what my point originally was.

Comments

( 48 comments — Leave a comment )
pickamix
Mar. 21st, 2014 08:07 am (UTC)
I get what you're saying. Kinda like I don't like Buffy as a character ... especially late seasons Buffy. I liked her until mid(ish) season 6 ... then I just hate, loathe, despise, her after that. Sorry ... we are going to disagree about this I know. But as I respect your right to like her ... as much as I don't understand it, I expect you to respect my unhappiness with her.

My girl is Willow. I loved her from the moment I saw her and never stopped. Ever. My OTP is Willow/Spike ... but I let others play with them all the time. Mostly Angel because I know I'll have readers for that. But I also love them with Tara and Faith and Wesley and a bunch of others. I'm also a poly girl at heart.

There's this one LJ user that absolutely hates Willow. Thinks that Willow was literally evil from the first episode on and her arc was just her getting the power to do something with that evil. I disagree with that ... but I didn't get "in the person's grill" about it. I just told them I really didn't agree with that point of view.

I got into a disagreement with someone about Buffy. I used strong words ... but I wasn't trying to put them down. It's just that Buffy in the late seasons triggers me on a deep emotional level. I guess because my abusers were women at times and I see a lot of the abuse that Buffy put Spike and others through as similar to what was done to me. So yes ... that I get a bit sensitive about. But even then I really try/tried to be reasonable.

I had been going somewhere but I lost my train of thought so I'm just going to go now.

*hugs and love*
eilowyn
Mar. 22nd, 2014 03:08 am (UTC)
Willow's a fascinating character. She may not be my favorite, but objectively I have to admit that her story arc is amazing. It's when we judge people by their favorites that we get into problems.
shapinglight
Mar. 21st, 2014 10:40 am (UTC)
I think really all it boils down to is live and let live. Unfortunately, fandom being the hothouse it is, that often doesn't work. People are just too ready to jump to judgement of others' preferences.

'Shipping has existed in fandom since fandom was invented (and I have no idea when that was), and always will. It does get a bad press, but it's certainly not just 'shippers who are guilty of the abovementioned lack of tolerance.

eilowyn
Mar. 22nd, 2014 03:12 am (UTC)
Shippers do get a bad rap. And I wish we could all just live and let live. I know in the past I've been brash and mouthy when it comes to what I like and dislike, but I've come to realize that it's just added stress to get worked up over those things. That doesn't mean I'm never going to get mouthy again; I'm human and a very passionate person. But it's worth trying to be that way.
shapinglight
Mar. 22nd, 2014 10:25 am (UTC)
Yeah, I think with this whole conversation a big, deep calming breath is needed on all sides.

ETA: Also, you might want to consider locking this thread.

Edited at 2014-03-22 04:18 pm (UTC)
sueworld2003
Mar. 21st, 2014 12:18 pm (UTC)
"WE ALL OVER IDENTIFY WITH OUR FAVORITES."

Exactly. Is it all right to link to this?
eilowyn
Mar. 21st, 2014 07:20 pm (UTC)
Sure!
shipperx
Mar. 21st, 2014 02:14 pm (UTC)
What bothers me is when people dismiss shippers as all being "problematic" or "troublesome" or "the reason why fandom is so terrible."


I always want these people to explain how and why these fans are any less legitimate than the ones who obsess over other aspects? Seriously, why is focusing on a fictional relationship any less legit than trying to figure out a convoluted (made-on-the-fly) fictional mythology? Or strategy in a fictional war? Or the "rules" of magic, souling, whatever? Or hyper-obsessing over friends at fifteen needing to be the only signficant people in your whole LIFE. Or how the entirity of life is 'just like high school' or what fictional 'plan' the Cylons "really" have?

All of these are focus on some --usually quite small -- area of particular interest to one individual. So why exactly are the ones who focus on the relationship dynamics of a couple of issues any less 'legitimate' than any of the other fans?
eilowyn
Mar. 22nd, 2014 03:12 am (UTC)
Exactly.
red_satin_doll
Mar. 21st, 2014 02:59 pm (UTC)
Thanks for linking to me sweetie! I already responded to both you and Kelsey on the thread over there: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/36749.html#comments

eilowyn
Mar. 25th, 2014 09:47 pm (UTC)
Thanks for all your input over at your journal!
red_satin_doll
Mar. 25th, 2014 11:29 pm (UTC)
You still love me anyway, right? :)

I admit I have no idea what the heckity-heck is going on except: Sarah outed herself as a Bangel, shippers of every stripe went a little nuts and starting into the "those people are crazy" thing they do; then apparently - the anti-shipper crowd came out (like the person who responded here no names mentioned) and the battle lines shifted again so now the shippers are all "we love one another hold hands kumbaya?"

Or - something like that? And we wonder why there's no peace in the middle east - I suspect the human animal isn't entirely happy unless there is an enemy to rally around.
eilowyn
Mar. 26th, 2014 04:37 pm (UTC)
Nothing unites people more than a common enemy - that's why shippers are in kumbaya kissy-face mode (that was an expression the love of my life when I was eighteen used to say, btw). It's kind of funny in its predictability.
red_satin_doll
Mar. 26th, 2014 05:11 pm (UTC)
Well, to use a geo-political reference: The Allies (including former enemies france and england) team up with the Soviet Union to beat the common enemy - Hitler. The enemy is vanquished and the Allies and and the Soviets go back to hating each other.

The enemy of the enemy is my friend blah blah blah.

It's kind of funny in its predictability.

Exactly. There is absolutely nothing new being said here that wasn't ten or fifteen years ago.
kikimay
Mar. 21st, 2014 03:31 pm (UTC)
The problem is when the shipping becomes nasty and some people use also personal offences or stuff like that. I can be friendly to those who ship something different when I'm treated with respect. Personally I'm open to differences: I can understand the love for Willow, for example, even if I identify with Buffy or I can appreciate good Bangel moments. I was neutral about Dawn, but kwritten's metas are so interesting and I'm becoming more and more interested about her.

Bottom line is that: if you have an opinion that is respectful, interesting, that gives me something in terms of culture or just personal emotion and understanding of the characters, you can be sure that I will appreciate that opinion even if I used to think differently. I believe that our brains aren't darkrooms. We can change our mind and understand the good in other opinions. And sometimes, in the fandom, you happen to meet some people who are just "I'm right, you're wrong" and that ends the creative experience.

That said I'm maybe an exception, I'm much more involved in the Spuffy shipping now then when I was 17 or 23 for the matter. Not only I have feelings about them both, but also my rational part agrees that Spike and Buffy are good with each others.

red_satin_doll
Mar. 22nd, 2014 02:02 am (UTC)
The problem is when the shipping becomes nasty and some people use also personal offences or stuff like that. I can be friendly to those who ship something different when I'm treated with respect.

Exactly THIS.

And big YES to the love for kwritten's work , which is desperately needed in fandom IMO.
eilowyn
Mar. 22nd, 2014 03:15 am (UTC)
It is all about respect. I know I've been disrespectful in the past, but now I don't have the time to worry myself into a fit about the things that used to make me go off. And I know that you've had bad experiences in fandom, so you've probably realized the same thing.
red_satin_doll
Mar. 23rd, 2014 01:02 am (UTC)
A year ago I was informed that I was an "abuse apologist" because I loved Buffy but shipped Buffy&Spike in S7. If I'd said I loved Spike, I'd be a rape apologist. I was also informed I was a Willow-hater.

Both accusations upset me at the time; now I realize it was a fandom right of passage. *shrugs*

velvetwhip
Mar. 22nd, 2014 05:53 am (UTC)
I am both a shipper and someone who does her best to treat everyone with respect (even those who hate Willow, who I must say is my absolute favorite character). It is completely possible to feel an overwhelming sense of emotion and connection toward your favorite ships and characters without being a jerk to others who don't share your particular preferences and I am so glad to see you pointing that out here. Thanks for using the post-structuralist model, btw, as, believe it or not, that's something I've been looking at and pondering myself lately. (How I got there from looking at Yellowism and then Dogme 95 is a tale for another day... or maybe not. It's dull to anyone who isn't me.)


Gabrielle

Edited at 2014-03-22 05:54 am (UTC)
red_satin_doll
Mar. 23rd, 2014 01:06 am (UTC)
It is completely possible to feel an overwhelming sense of emotion and connection toward your favorite ships and characters without being a jerk to others who don't share your particular preferences

And it still needs to be said *le sigh*

Thanks for using the post-structuralist model, btw, as, believe it or not, that's something I've been looking at and pondering myself lately. (How I got there from looking at Yellowism and then Dogme 95 is a tale for another day... or maybe not. It's dull to anyone who isn't me.)

I'm sure I'd be fascinated by that - if I knew what everyone was talking about. (And I was the kid in school who was accused of using "long words" and was so smug about it. Karma's a bitch, indeed.)

This fandom is like going back to college for me. Everyone keep talking - I may not have a clue 99% of the time but I might pick up one or two tidbits along the way!

eilowyn
Mar. 23rd, 2014 05:48 am (UTC)
It is completely possible to feel an overwhelming sense of emotion and connection toward your favorite ships and characters without being a jerk to others who don't share your particular preferences

This, exactly, was my point (I think - I didn't exactly have a clear thesis and I think I used some circular logic, but I think you nailed what I was going for!)
papricasantiago.pip.verisignlabs.com
Mar. 22nd, 2014 11:19 am (UTC)
Shippers are seen as lesser because they largely cannot draw the line between the content of the work and their own ideas, wishes and hopes inspired by and derived from the original work. They are not fans of the original work, they are fans of the derived content. This is the root of the conflict between shippers and non-shippers.

Fans say "Thanks, Star Trek, for your masculinist narrative, but I'm going to ship Kirk/Spock and create my own narrative."

See, other fans are not interested in your own personal narrative because they are fans of the original work, not your personal derived content. Whenever you bring your personal narrative to a discussion about original work you simply make things up. There is no romantic relationship between Kirk and Spock in the original work. You are free to fetishize those characters in your fan fiction or your sexual fantasies thus creating your own derived content but this is not the original work anymore.

we all over identify with our favorites

No, we do not. You are projecting your own personal views on the entire fan base. I find it arrogant.

If your favorite was threatened, wouldn't you rally to support them?

No, I would not. I do not identify with my favorite characters. I accept them the way they are written. Take a look at some popular forums for the fans of the show, you'll find plenty of people who unabashedly berate their favorite characters.
elisi
Mar. 22nd, 2014 05:54 pm (UTC)
They are not fans of the original work, they are fans of the derived content. This is the root of the conflict between shippers and non-shippers. [...] See, other fans are not interested in your own personal narrative because they are fans of the original work, not your personal derived content.
Kirk/Spock was possibly not the best example. Yes, many shippers take characters that are not couples in canon and run away and write curtain fic (or PWP or whatever) and that's fine, no matter whether the writers are deliberately adding UST with a trowel, or whether the characters have barely met. However, many many ships are canon, and are indeed the backbone of the show/narrative in question. Take Doctor Who for example - when the show returned (in 2005) it was deliberately based around the Ninth Doctor/Rose relationship. The Eleventh Doctor goes on to marry River Song, and their story is at the heart of S6. Tony Stark/Pepper Potts is an ongoing storyline of the Iron Man movies. This is not 'personal derived content', it's show canon. You might prefer to focus your enjoyment of Doctor Who or Iron Man in different areas to the romantic entanglements, but that does not somehow invalidate those who prefer the latter. (Heck, how many years of UST did X Files get out of Mulder and Scully's will-they-won't-they? Is Mulder/Scully 'personal derived content'? Or how about Niles/Daphne on Frasier? Their relationship was aeons of longing looks, and then they ended up getting their own show.)

No, I would not. I do not identify with my favorite characters.
Neither do I. I like to analyse them. And their relationships. I'm very canon-based. But many people *do* identify, and that's a perfectly valid way to watch TV. Heck, Rose on Doctor Who was designed to be a walking, talking avatar for the viewers. As are most Doctor Who companions - just listen to the complaints about Amy or Clara not being 'normal' or 'relatable' enough), and all the 'ordinary people' who are so often the heroes of movies. Personally I find them boring - I like the weird psychopathic aliens.

(Just my two cents, hope you don't mind.)

ETA: Your Friends Are Not Watching the Same Show You Are (And That's Okay). (Not about shipping per se, but about how everyone sees something different, even when they look at the same thing.)

Edited at 2014-03-23 09:53 am (UTC)
shipperx
Mar. 25th, 2014 10:52 pm (UTC)
(Heck, how many years of UST did X Files get out of Mulder and Scully's will-they-won't-they?

I believe it was 8, but even the 'confirmation' was so oblique that there was another year of in-fighting before it was confirmed. And then it was basically the only thing the last film was about. :)

Is Mulder/Scully 'personal derived content'?

For years and years of fandom wars it was considered to be so. But... whahahahahaha! Shippers won.:D


Or how about Niles/Daphne on Frasier?
Peter and Olivia (Fringe), Aeryn and Crichton (Farscape), Mitchell and Annie (Being Human. Never shipped them, personally, but there were those who did). Apollo/Starbuck (Battlestar Galactica. Actually I HATED that ship but there were people who loved it), Hook/Emma shippers OUAT, etc.

I just get peeved over the concept that "shippers ruin fandom." There are plenty of angry fanboys/girls to ruin fandom over all sorts of crazified personal nitpicks. Fandom = fan wars. It's always something.
eilowyn
Mar. 23rd, 2014 05:45 am (UTC)
I'm getting the feeling that you don't like subjectivity, but it's something that every fan brings to the table. Every fan has their own life experiences that inform how they view characters, relationships, and entire media works. From your tone I'm getting that you don't accept the fact that there are fans different from you who have different reasons to like different things about the same media work.

See, other fans are not interested in your own personal narrative because they are fans of the original work, not your personal derived content. Whenever you bring your personal narrative to a discussion about original work you simply make things up.

Just because you can't see a homoerotic subtext in Star Trek, or Sherlock, or Supernatural, doesn't mean that other fans don't subjectively see it. There's a concept in fan theory called meta text, which includes the text of the media work, all fan works about the media work, and all journalism about the media work. All of those come into play when we look at the original text, because we don't view media in a vacuum. When I first got into fan theory, I had never seen Star Trek. I knew about it, but I had never seen it. I then read a book on the Star Trek fandom that talked about Kirk/Spock, and that informed how I looked at Star Trek when I did see it. You can't unsee a thing when it's pointed out to you.

Again, I think you have a problem with the fact that other people subjectively see the original work differently than you do. Everyone is subjective. Media doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is nothing wrong with someone over-identifying with a character, and you imply it's something that shouldn't be desired in fandom. And identifying with a character doesn't mean you don't analyze them or get annoyed with them.

Shippers are seen as lesser because they largely cannot draw the line between the content of the work and their own ideas, wishes and hopes inspired by and derived from the original work. They are not fans of the original work, they are fans of the derived content. This is the root of the conflict between shippers and non-shippers.

Again, we all approach the metatext differently. By saying that shippers cannot draw the line between the work and their interpretation dismisses the impact the metatext has on EVERYONE. Like I said earlier, media does not exist in a vacuum.
gillo
Mar. 25th, 2014 02:20 pm (UTC)
they are fans of the original work

But how do you define that? When I watch Buffy I cannot watch it in a vacuum, totally separated from my own subjectivity. Inevitably I bring my own experiences to the mix - age, gender, orientation, nationality, life experiences. The more references I "get" because of past reading and watching, the wittier I will consider it. My political and gender views will affect how I see canon relationships and how much I may see extra-canonical relationships.

It is impossible to experience anything completely objectively. The lens through which you watch exists. You can recognise it and consider alternatives. Or you can privilege your own by considering it the only possible interpretation of the only possible "original".
sophist
Mar. 23rd, 2014 04:23 pm (UTC)
Very nicely done. Since others have already made the points I'd make, I'll just leave it at that.
eilowyn
Mar. 25th, 2014 06:55 pm (UTC)
Thank you!
snogged
Mar. 23rd, 2014 06:20 pm (UTC)
This was fascinating.

I really try to live and let live. I know I'm one of the few who doesn't ship Spike/Buffy, but I try to be open to it anyway and I will read certain Spuffy fics if they're done well.
eilowyn
Mar. 25th, 2014 06:55 pm (UTC)
Thanks! And yes, live and let live is best.
red_satin_doll
Mar. 25th, 2014 11:38 pm (UTC)
I know I'm one of the few who doesn't ship Spike/Buffy

The fact that you're even saying that hon is sort of a testament to how much certain shipping factions dominate the conversation isn't it? Unless you mean specifically "one of the few people in this convo thread..." and I'm not even sure of that unless we do a show of hands. *lol*

but I try to be open to it anyway and I will read certain Spuffy fics if they're done well.

The experience for me has ALWAYS been, regardless of the fandom, that I discover ships that other people love and write about that I had never considered. Shipping is not my primary lens as a viewer and consumer, so it doesn't occur to me until other people point things out. Willow and Spike? Oh, sure, why not? Willow and Angel? Thanks to fandom I can now pretty much ship Willow with anyone, male or female. Then eventually my own likes and dislikes slip in - Faith and Dawn, Buffy and Tara; but I need fandom to "prime the pump".

It's also true that the patterns I see in existing shipping factions in which characters I love are disliked or even hated (how do you "ship" a character you hate? IDK) drive me to open myself more to other ships, and broaden my reading habits.

f.ex. I don't ship Buffy/Giles but il_mio_capitano writes the most amazing stories about their relationship. So in those moments I'm reading her fic - I guess I'm really an il_mio_capitano "shipper".
simonf
Mar. 25th, 2014 09:34 am (UTC)
"What bothers me is when people dismiss shippers as all being "problematic" or "troublesome" or "the reason why fandom is so terrible.""

Some of us have very long memories and got fed up with shippers shouting us down. This helped to kill off the general online Buffy fandom in 2003-2005.
gillo
Mar. 25th, 2014 02:21 pm (UTC)
There is a difference between the behaviour of some shippers and the activity of all.
sueworld2003
Mar. 25th, 2014 09:12 pm (UTC)
There's extremists in all parts of fandom and not just shippers. So to focus on one particular group is just snobbery imo.
sueworld2003
Mar. 26th, 2014 08:09 am (UTC)
Not in Simon's eyes apparently. :(
eilowyn
Mar. 25th, 2014 06:56 pm (UTC)
Sorry to play the devil's advocate, but would the shippers be so loud if they felt fandom at large was actually listening to what they have to say?
simonf
Mar. 25th, 2014 07:46 pm (UTC)
Oh god, yes. Shippers are the most zealotry of all fans. Individual shippers are lovely people full of great insight. But as a collective, not so much collective. They will talk louder and louder until all you hear is them. Other opinions don't get a look in. And if rival shippers starting talking about their ships, then it's war and damn the rules.

That's why W-esque took such drastic action so many years ago. Shipping talk was putting off a lot of people from posting and giving us a bad name. And when we did ban shippers, they would sneak back in under different names to carry on throwing insults at each. Or would organise secret campaigns to infiltrate us because they knew the PTB read the site. And I've endured smears from them as has the site in general. Their previous actions have done nothing to endear themselves to me.
sueworld2003
Mar. 25th, 2014 09:07 pm (UTC)
"That's why W-esque took such drastic action so many years ago"

And imo taken to utterly ridiculous extremes where even talking about particular characters as individuals was banned.

"They will talk louder and louder until all you hear is them. Other opinions don't get a look in"

Dear lord really? *rolls eyes*
eilowyn
Mar. 26th, 2014 06:52 am (UTC)
I was taking my time in responding to you, because if I look at fandom history, BtVS played a role in the toxicity of shipping culture. I'm wondering how we got from Mulder and Scully to today's Tumblr hate. I'm trying to think of a show earlier than BtVS that had almost equal numbers of devotees to warring ships, and I'm not coming up with one (because really, the Mulder/Krycek shippers were a minority). So I'll give you that shippers can be bad, but you seem to be smearing all shippers with the same brush.
shipperx
Mar. 26th, 2014 01:54 pm (UTC)
Oh, shippers took a crap-ton of hate in X-Files fandom. Believe me. There were entire shipper/noromo wars (noromo were "no romance", no so much hating romancing but denying that any such thing existed and then when getting the hint that perhaps a romance DID exist they defaulted into no romance should exist (because, yeah, MSR became canonical)

Somehow online "shipper" terminology stuck. "Noromo" net-speak went the way of the dodo. Probably because the shipper is an unkillable breed that spans all fandoms. Find a fandom without one.

It probably has to do with the fact that for some people what's meaningful in stories are the emotional journeys of characters. That's a hard thing to irradicate.
sueworld2003
Mar. 25th, 2014 09:14 pm (UTC)
"This helped to kill off the general online Buffy fandom in 2003-2005."

Yeah, right...
shipperx
Mar. 25th, 2014 10:55 pm (UTC)
Some of us have very long memories and got fed up with shippers shouting us down.

And vice versa.

Since both sides claim to have been 'done wrong' maybe it's not as clear cut as all that.

This helped to kill off the general online Buffy fandom in 2003-2005.

Uh... who exactly assigned this particular death date?

Based on...?

And did the fandom know?



Edited at 2014-03-25 10:57 pm (UTC)
sueworld2003
Mar. 26th, 2014 08:06 am (UTC)
Yeah I must have missed the memo on that one too. *g*
shipperx
Mar. 26th, 2014 01:45 pm (UTC)
Official Death Date: ________

Cause of Death: ?

Everything posted or any Con participation post 2003? Zombies!
shapinglight
Mar. 26th, 2014 08:13 am (UTC)
Some of us have very long memories and got fed up with shippers shouting us down. This helped to kill off the general online Buffy fandom in 2003-2005.

As overstatements go, this is up there with the most OTT of them.

Edited at 2014-03-26 08:14 am (UTC)
sueworld2003
Mar. 26th, 2014 09:35 am (UTC)
Yeah more fan baiting I suspect.

But If not I'd love to see him back these sweeping statements up.
shapinglight
Mar. 26th, 2014 09:31 pm (UTC)
But If not I'd love to see him back these sweeping statements up.

I wouldn't hold your breath.
shipperx
Mar. 26th, 2014 01:48 pm (UTC)
So the fandom died before the comics?

No wonder the comics are such crap! *snerk*

( 48 comments — Leave a comment )

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